So, and so. Vincent's answers are cagey as his own had been, and Illarion gives a brief nod of respect to this. A man after his own heart, where it comes to operational security.
"I suppose," he says, slow and thoughtful, "there's no sure way to tell whether you belong to his future and he to your past."
Something he'd tried and failed to convince the youth of, in a positive sense.
He muses a moment, then spreads his hands before him. Vincent is the one driving this interview; Illarion could ask another question, but will defer to the younger man.
"If Folkmore is a place out of time, then I have no idea if my memories will change because of Sephiroth's actions. But it doesn't matter."
It does. Vincent ignores the way his heart stings a touch at the thought of losing the friends he earned. Well... he's made his choice. And there are a lot of possibilities floating around, differing realities, timelines, the ability to keep memories both old and new. It's better to focus on the here and now than be distracted.
"If you're asking that question, what did he tell you about his future?"
"That he causes such suffering in that future, it's only reasonable for others to fear and condemn him here and now. That it might be inevitable. That it involves his non-human mother, and she is a risk to both him and all your world.
"He's more sparing with the actual events, but I have also not asked for them."
Much. For now, working off Sephiroth's perception of his own future would have to do, though it leaves Illarion information-poor.
There will be no addition to this limited information on Vincent's part. What Sephiroth wishes to tell the shrike will have to come from the teen himself- or by his leave for the former Turk to speak of it. But Ilarion probably expects that by now. Such is confirmed when the gunman merely nods and it may just be an acknowledgement at having received the summary. Not a confirmation, though perhaps the lack of reaction or tells suggests there's more correct than not.
"I won't mince words. I'm relieved this didn't result in disaster." There might be a hidden 'yet' in his tone where Vincent can't quite control it in his candor. "I believe you know your field. But I think it was wrong to put that much trust into making this work in such a short time. And... I'm not sure you knew enough about Sephiroth's current state to understand what a big risk you took."
But oddly? While Vincent might surely have been angry and upset and possibly cautious even now, there isn't censure in those words. The gunman is trying his level best to express his opinion with as little judgement as possible.
"I'm sure you saw it. He has little to no understanding of boundary or limits. Given something that sounds like an order, he will follow it." To a degree, probably. But while Vincent recognizes he might be in a position in Sephiroth's mind as someone whose orders should be followed, it concerns him. It may not take much insistence to break through any reluctance, particularly as the youth becomes more comfortable with the individual. "And that applies even to what he would put himself through for the sake of his goals."
Even though Ilarion hadn't been the one to initate this, Vincent has good reason to worry for the teen's sake.
"I'd like to know what your deal with Baba Yaga was. Did she promise to make sure Sephiroth would be safe and the corruption kept from this world and his? Or did she only promise to contain the corruption?"
Because yeah. There's a huge difference there that he's not entirely sure would have been kept in the spirit of.
"And... I'd like you to explain as much as you can of what led you to agree to this and find a way to make it happen. So I can understand if I'm missing something."
This information is exactly what Illarion had been hoping for.
Even if it is delivered in the form of a (deserved) lecture, it is something the shrike needs, and so he listens--impassive behind his veil but with unwavering attention on Vincent. He is politely silent a moment after the questions are asked, to see if any more follow as much to consider his own responses.
"She promised," and here he closed his eyes, unseeing though they are, as he remembers Baba Yaga's intimations, "that no permanent magical harm would come of it. While this isn't contract-precision on her part, and theoretically permits a loophole for permanent non-magical harm as a result of the ritual," such as someone going insane, "the spirit of her school as I understand it is to enable the safe practice of otherwise dangerous abilities."
So only mitigating a narrow set of harms that could be directly ascribed to the magic itself... was not in keeping with her nature.
He opens his eyes once more, appearing to regard Vincent as he answers the second question. "Your charge is both desperate for help and unwilling to trust others with specifics of what help he needs. To the latter, he pleads having been hurt in the past by those who learned enough to spurn him.
"My first choice was to offer him non-magical skills in recruiting others from his home to his cause. When he rejected this as impossible and an unnecessary waste of life, I suggested an Omen instead--a fully reliable ally that was also part of him. My intent was not only that he have an ally, but recognize my commitment to helping him.
"Understand that summoning an Omen is not, ordinarily, an involved or risky invocation. Similarly, the alterations I made to the world to enable him to do so are not high-risk as long as all the rules are followed. I erred in assuming he understood completely what the summoning entailed, when he pushed to conduct the ritual immediately."
His tone is eerily level throughout this explanation, and changes not a jot as he adds: "Your agitation at the time was understandable. But, I had not planned for your interjections and his reactions to them. How much that contributed to the ritual's outcomes I can't rightly say without an additional adjudicator."
It isn't an accusation, just a dry statement of fact. Things most likely would have still gone sideways without Vincent there, given Sephiroth.
"Hm." Yeah there's a loophole for physical harm. And yes, this could have very much resulted in Sephiroth's death or even crippling him. Unless one argues that the 'spirit' of nonmagical harm would have included the fallout of the ritual itself and thus recovery would have been possible.
Well, death isn't permanent but yeah. Vincent isn't one to have faith that the spirit of an agreement won't be upheld. And the reminder that Baba Yaga's school being a place to safely practice dangerous abilities doesn't ease the man's mind.
Couldn't that just mean it's meant to make sure others don't suffer in the collateral? She probably wouldn't stop a lesson from including the risks of what happens if the person goes too far.
"I got that impression." Vincent says at his most driest. The whole point of the study and care and Ilarion using his power to warp reality so it would work in the first place had been made very clear at the time.
And though he narrows his eyes when Ilarion states Vincent's addition to the proceedings could have (or did) changed the outcome, this is not disputed. There is a saying that the act of observing an outcome will change it. And though it is most apt on a physics level, it can apply here. Certainly, the former Turk was no mere observer.
"The time we have in Folkmore is not predetermined," Vincent begins. "Even while we're in this conversation, Thirteen can choose to send one of us back to our world and time. We may remember or keep the changes we're given here, we might not. And at any time after, we can be brought back."
It doesn't hurt to tell Ilarion this; it's an easy to discover fact about the world and maybe the shrike already knows it. But there's no guarantee that he's naturally aware of it right now so this is spoken with the spirit of an explanation rather than and direct accusation.
"Sephiroth has already had that happen once. A lot more time passed for him than it did here. But from others speaking about it, that time could be minutes, hours or years. There's no way of knowing how long he has to learn things that will be useful."
There is then, just for a moment, a fleeting flash of emotion. A tiny spark of remembered irritation.
"I don't know how children are in your society. But in ours, they're generally not known for rational behavior under pressure in the best of circumstances. Sephiroth has not, nor will likely ever have that luxury." Of having the best of circumstances. "It's something you need to keep in mind if you want to continue helping him."
The mention of Sephiroth being unwilling to share what is needed to help the teen has not gone unnoticed. But it has, for the time being, but intentionally passed over to address other bits of the conversation. Though there is one thing he does bring up.
"Don't misunderstand. The boy has every reason to think he'll be abandoned. My past actions seem to be repeated in his time. And he has had a few people draw away or given his circumstances, perceived it that way."
It's a hard pill for a kid to swallow that an adult could help in passing but maybe not be able to truly help where it's needed. And wouldn't it all look the same anyway?
"And even if someone did help, they could be pulled away by the Fox forever too."
Outwardly, Illarion's expression remains imperturbable. Even if he didn't have the (questionable) advantage of undeath on his side--a dead heart, a focused mind, a body still and quiet as the grave--he could maintain that look; it was part of a Warlord's armamentarium. Inwardly--
Inwardly, he doesn't feel much about what's said either.
But his own feathery tail appears long enough to thump the ground, once, by the legs of his chair.
"Our children are given every chance we can to make those decisions they're ready to make," he says, levelly. "Some of them won't be rational and some of the outcomes will hurt. They learn to make better choices by and by.
"But--if I don't miss my guess--Sephiroth has been given both too much and too little autonomy for his age, and been hurt far in excess of what his decisions have earned him. He's nevertheless achieved independence from his creators--enough, at least, to choose what to do with himself even of he hasn't questioned their vision of what he must be."
From Illarion's own experience, that was the far harder task. He still hadn't achieved it, on his worst days.
"Young as he is, he isn't a child. And neither you, nor I, can help him by questioning his ability to reason or arbitrarily constraining his choices. Even knowing he'll obey a direct order without thinking about it."
(Another thump of his tail. His outfeathers bristle, where no one can see them but he can feel his own awful gut reaction to that notion.)
"As you say, we can be pulled away at any time, and he won't have any ally gained here with him there. All the more reason not to squander time and trust by fighting with him where he chooses to entrench himself.
"So I thank you for your caution to be careful with him, and thank you more for what you've told me of his past and nature. The more I know about him--and your world--the more help I can be, and the further I might foresee consequences of that help.
"But I will not keep him from risks he understands well enough to freely choose. I ask your trust in that, and your further aid in helping me know the limits of his particular understanding. Sephiroth's, not just some human child who wasn't made as he was."
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momijizukamori
no subject
Date: 2024-09-11 06:21 am (UTC)"I suppose," he says, slow and thoughtful, "there's no sure way to tell whether you belong to his future and he to your past."
Something he'd tried and failed to convince the youth of, in a positive sense.
He muses a moment, then spreads his hands before him. Vincent is the one driving this interview; Illarion could ask another question, but will defer to the younger man.
no subject
Date: 2024-09-11 06:56 am (UTC)It does. Vincent ignores the way his heart stings a touch at the thought of losing the friends he earned. Well... he's made his choice. And there are a lot of possibilities floating around, differing realities, timelines, the ability to keep memories both old and new. It's better to focus on the here and now than be distracted.
"If you're asking that question, what did he tell you about his future?"
no subject
Date: 2024-09-14 02:15 am (UTC)"He's more sparing with the actual events, but I have also not asked for them."
Much. For now, working off Sephiroth's perception of his own future would have to do, though it leaves Illarion information-poor.
no subject
Date: 2024-09-14 03:50 am (UTC)"I won't mince words. I'm relieved this didn't result in disaster." There might be a hidden 'yet' in his tone where Vincent can't quite control it in his candor. "I believe you know your field. But I think it was wrong to put that much trust into making this work in such a short time. And... I'm not sure you knew enough about Sephiroth's current state to understand what a big risk you took."
But oddly? While Vincent might surely have been angry and upset and possibly cautious even now, there isn't censure in those words. The gunman is trying his level best to express his opinion with as little judgement as possible.
"I'm sure you saw it. He has little to no understanding of boundary or limits. Given something that sounds like an order, he will follow it." To a degree, probably. But while Vincent recognizes he might be in a position in Sephiroth's mind as someone whose orders should be followed, it concerns him. It may not take much insistence to break through any reluctance, particularly as the youth becomes more comfortable with the individual. "And that applies even to what he would put himself through for the sake of his goals."
Even though Ilarion hadn't been the one to initate this, Vincent has good reason to worry for the teen's sake.
"I'd like to know what your deal with Baba Yaga was. Did she promise to make sure Sephiroth would be safe and the corruption kept from this world and his? Or did she only promise to contain the corruption?"
Because yeah. There's a huge difference there that he's not entirely sure would have been kept in the spirit of.
"And... I'd like you to explain as much as you can of what led you to agree to this and find a way to make it happen. So I can understand if I'm missing something."
no subject
Date: 2024-09-17 06:35 am (UTC)Even if it is delivered in the form of a (deserved) lecture, it is something the shrike needs, and so he listens--impassive behind his veil but with unwavering attention on Vincent. He is politely silent a moment after the questions are asked, to see if any more follow as much to consider his own responses.
"She promised," and here he closed his eyes, unseeing though they are, as he remembers Baba Yaga's intimations, "that no permanent magical harm would come of it. While this isn't contract-precision on her part, and theoretically permits a loophole for permanent non-magical harm as a result of the ritual," such as someone going insane, "the spirit of her school as I understand it is to enable the safe practice of otherwise dangerous abilities."
So only mitigating a narrow set of harms that could be directly ascribed to the magic itself... was not in keeping with her nature.
He opens his eyes once more, appearing to regard Vincent as he answers the second question. "Your charge is both desperate for help and unwilling to trust others with specifics of what help he needs. To the latter, he pleads having been hurt in the past by those who learned enough to spurn him.
"My first choice was to offer him non-magical skills in recruiting others from his home to his cause. When he rejected this as impossible and an unnecessary waste of life, I suggested an Omen instead--a fully reliable ally that was also part of him. My intent was not only that he have an ally, but recognize my commitment to helping him.
"Understand that summoning an Omen is not, ordinarily, an involved or risky invocation. Similarly, the alterations I made to the world to enable him to do so are not high-risk as long as all the rules are followed. I erred in assuming he understood completely what the summoning entailed, when he pushed to conduct the ritual immediately."
His tone is eerily level throughout this explanation, and changes not a jot as he adds: "Your agitation at the time was understandable. But, I had not planned for your interjections and his reactions to them. How much that contributed to the ritual's outcomes I can't rightly say without an additional adjudicator."
It isn't an accusation, just a dry statement of fact. Things most likely would have still gone sideways without Vincent there, given Sephiroth.
no subject
Date: 2024-09-17 07:15 pm (UTC)Well, death isn't permanent but yeah. Vincent isn't one to have faith that the spirit of an agreement won't be upheld. And the reminder that Baba Yaga's school being a place to safely practice dangerous abilities doesn't ease the man's mind.
Couldn't that just mean it's meant to make sure others don't suffer in the collateral? She probably wouldn't stop a lesson from including the risks of what happens if the person goes too far.
"I got that impression." Vincent says at his most driest. The whole point of the study and care and Ilarion using his power to warp reality so it would work in the first place had been made very clear at the time.
And though he narrows his eyes when Ilarion states Vincent's addition to the proceedings could have (or did) changed the outcome, this is not disputed. There is a saying that the act of observing an outcome will change it. And though it is most apt on a physics level, it can apply here. Certainly, the former Turk was no mere observer.
"The time we have in Folkmore is not predetermined," Vincent begins. "Even while we're in this conversation, Thirteen can choose to send one of us back to our world and time. We may remember or keep the changes we're given here, we might not. And at any time after, we can be brought back."
It doesn't hurt to tell Ilarion this; it's an easy to discover fact about the world and maybe the shrike already knows it. But there's no guarantee that he's naturally aware of it right now so this is spoken with the spirit of an explanation rather than and direct accusation.
"Sephiroth has already had that happen once. A lot more time passed for him than it did here. But from others speaking about it, that time could be minutes, hours or years. There's no way of knowing how long he has to learn things that will be useful."
There is then, just for a moment, a fleeting flash of emotion. A tiny spark of remembered irritation.
"I don't know how children are in your society. But in ours, they're generally not known for rational behavior under pressure in the best of circumstances. Sephiroth has not, nor will likely ever have that luxury." Of having the best of circumstances. "It's something you need to keep in mind if you want to continue helping him."
The mention of Sephiroth being unwilling to share what is needed to help the teen has not gone unnoticed. But it has, for the time being, but intentionally passed over to address other bits of the conversation. Though there is one thing he does bring up.
"Don't misunderstand. The boy has every reason to think he'll be abandoned. My past actions seem to be repeated in his time. And he has had a few people draw away or given his circumstances, perceived it that way."
It's a hard pill for a kid to swallow that an adult could help in passing but maybe not be able to truly help where it's needed. And wouldn't it all look the same anyway?
"And even if someone did help, they could be pulled away by the Fox forever too."
no subject
Date: 2024-09-22 05:52 am (UTC)Inwardly, he doesn't feel much about what's said either.
But his own feathery tail appears long enough to thump the ground, once, by the legs of his chair.
"Our children are given every chance we can to make those decisions they're ready to make," he says, levelly. "Some of them won't be rational and some of the outcomes will hurt. They learn to make better choices by and by.
"But--if I don't miss my guess--Sephiroth has been given both too much and too little autonomy for his age, and been hurt far in excess of what his decisions have earned him. He's nevertheless achieved independence from his creators--enough, at least, to choose what to do with himself even of he hasn't questioned their vision of what he must be."
From Illarion's own experience, that was the far harder task. He still hadn't achieved it, on his worst days.
"Young as he is, he isn't a child. And neither you, nor I, can help him by questioning his ability to reason or arbitrarily constraining his choices. Even knowing he'll obey a direct order without thinking about it."
(Another thump of his tail. His outfeathers bristle, where no one can see them but he can feel his own awful gut reaction to that notion.)
"As you say, we can be pulled away at any time, and he won't have any ally gained here with him there. All the more reason not to squander time and trust by fighting with him where he chooses to entrench himself.
"So I thank you for your caution to be careful with him, and thank you more for what you've told me of his past and nature. The more I know about him--and your world--the more help I can be, and the further I might foresee consequences of that help.
"But I will not keep him from risks he understands well enough to freely choose. I ask your trust in that, and your further aid in helping me know the limits of his particular understanding. Sephiroth's, not just some human child who wasn't made as he was."