I want objective external perspective from someone used to doing analysis. I know how skewed things can be when you're the subject instead of the observer.
Think of it as explaining my own heritage w.r.t Jenova a little more if it helps.
You know that all returns to the Lifestream. There are exceptions of course. And sometimes strong wills persist. When Sephiroth died and fell into the mako pools at the bottom of Mt. Nibel's reactor, I'm sure it comes as no surprise to learn he retained some consciousness.
There's a theory that he and Jenova became one. I honestly don't know what to tell you to believe as fact. But for simplicity's sake, I'll say Sephiroth. But even after Cloud defeated him five years after his death, his... legacy still persisted in the Lifestream. It crept out into the world. A type of miasma that, because the Lifestream surged through the land to help fight Meteor, crept into the populace.
There's a circuit in all of our bodies similar to the Lifestream. This 'pox' was seen as a foreign invader the body tried to fight off. That was, in effect, Geostigma. But its purpose wasn't to destroy humanity. It was to find a way to return. Perhaps because he could no longer remember, having lost too much of himself.
Eventually that miasma created three beings. And those were Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo. Their purpose was to find enough of Jenova that remained in the world and bring back Sephiroth's return. And they did terrible things to achieve that goal.
[ Absolutely would be the most driest of tone if it had been spoken. ]
It's more of a theory than evidence. We know now that one of the early theories about Jenova- that it was a Cetra were false. What we don't know is how much sentience it had. Only that the organism that was found in the strata had still living cells. And even a small fraction could radically impact living organisms.
When we encountered Sephiroth on our journey, we did fight manifestations of Jenova. But in my personal opinion, those had no more intelligence than a cunning beast. Sephiroth was the only personality we ever seemed to face.
If there is any evidence that Sephiroth and 'Jenova' were one and the same, it would be that he needed a large enough piece of it to return to the world as a whole being. But it's also reasonable to suggest that may be related to the circumstances of his conception.
A little bit of both. There's theories, scientific research connected to studying geostigma. But ultimately even best of Shinra's remaining scientists were only able to develop a drug that managed the pain of the disease it caused.
And no one in their right minds were going to hand over what few samples of Jenova still existed.
[ Certainly not even to the most trusted and sincere of those scientists. ]
Understand that there were few people who actually knew Sephiroth was behind anything. Shinra covered it up well. For two years, the world was dealing with the fallout of losing mako reactors, of Meteor and rebuilding after the Lifestream manifested. Geostigma was just another trial, thought to originate from Midgar and Shinra.
Truly knowing what it was came in those few weeks leading up to Sephiroth's return. For me, another year has passed. Though I don't know if anyone is directly looking further into what it truly was. Wouldn't be surprised though.
Probably a failing on my part that I can't connect toxic clouds to creating new people whole cloth or diseases. It sounds like made-up nonsense.
So if you take this bullshit sounding cloud and stuff in enough bits of Jenova, you get ... another Sephiroth? Seems kind of odd that he can make three entire people but couldn't make something for himself.
As they should. Vincent probably takes a bit to respond. Work, but also getting details right.
Ah. Maybe 'miasma' is the wrong word. It was an essence mixed in the Lifestream. And as it tore across the land, those touched by it had a chance to become infected. After, it appeared often in water.
There were reports that those who were feeling their mortality, the fear of death at the time were the ones who developed geostigma. The physical breakdown of the patient's body as it fought against the invasion was painful. But the 'disease' itself, if you could call it that, seemed to feed on despair and suffering. The more you thought of giving up, well. The faster it progressed until the victim's body gave out.
Hm. I'm not sure exactly how the first came into existence.
[ He has bits of the story thanks to Tseng and Elena but... ]
But a catalyst somehow brought Kadaj into existence. The other two may have came because of this limited 'success'. But that's just a theory. As you say, it took more to bring Sephiroth himself back. He doesn't see them as real people. To him, that may be because they never were meant to be more than a stepping stone. And Jenova may not have been enough.
Maybe Cloud was the final piece. Maybe not.
[ There is a pause. ]
I don't say this because I believe there is no hope. But from a purely practical standpoint, the only reason Kadaj and Yazoo have physical forms... that need to eat and breathe and sleep and can get hurt. That is because of the Admiral. If their limiters were removed, they would be just as they were on our world, I think. Well, physically at least.
That is something you shouldn't tell anyone without their permission. It can lead to a lot of problems if it was spread around.
I don't see why anyone would think it's hopeless. The Admiral doesn't bring people here just to send them back to die. Either they're sturdier than you give them credit for or there's an alternative to be found.
Well it sounds to me like I had it a bit backwards earlier when I suggested Sephiroth was their dad. He's their mother. Ok. That's weird but it's not like we're natural anyway so why the heck not.
No reason to discuss any of this with anyone, frankly. I just wanted to be certain where they come from, and that it wasn't Shinra.
They can become human if they desire. But the panic could come from what they currently are. I agree though. The Admiral saw something in who they are. I agreed to work with him. I don't see a reason yet to refute it.
[ Then, Sephiroth is... .... snrt .... good thing this is text. ]
I suppose that's not wrong. Either way, I appreciate the discretion.
I don't think anything on our planet can just will themselves to change species, Vincent. They're impressionable, I wouldn't tell them such a thing and then have them face its impossibility.
On a related subject, do you talk to Shaw warden to warden much?
When I heard she became your warden, I spoke with her. Took her to the Enclosure to show her some things. Started with Midgar, before Meteor. Though after your time.
I wonder if she got it from you then. She seems hellbent on blaming everything that happens on Gaia on Shinra. Thinks she's seen it all before, won't consider anything that isn't what she's already decided on.
Really hung up on the idea that Shinra must have created the boys as tools for war.
Turns out they're still tools for war, just a different battlefield.
Don't take it as me blaming you. I get the impression she's projecting her own world's issues onto ours, just trying to figure out where this laser focus came from.
No, though I acknowledge it might be part of the cause.
Another factor may be Shaw's condition that makes it hard for her to process or express certain social cues.
[ There's no reason not to mention this; she's spoken of it herself publicly. ]
It's hard to say. She's worked for an agency with tasks that could parallel some of what the Turks do for Shinra. Shaw might be using those similarities for her impression.
Nope. She's my warden to deal with. But if she harps on Shinra being the source of all mortal ills in your presence, feel free to curb it. I got confirmation this one she's wrong on, it's enough.
But I don't think she needs to know details about the boys' origins. She doesn't understand, willfully I suspect, that our planet's different when it comes to monsters.
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I want objective external perspective from someone used to doing analysis. I know how skewed things can be when you're the subject instead of the observer.
Think of it as explaining my own heritage w.r.t Jenova a little more if it helps.
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[ Then. ]
You know that all returns to the Lifestream. There are exceptions of course. And sometimes strong wills persist. When Sephiroth died and fell into the mako pools at the bottom of Mt. Nibel's reactor, I'm sure it comes as no surprise to learn he retained some consciousness.
There's a theory that he and Jenova became one. I honestly don't know what to tell you to believe as fact. But for simplicity's sake, I'll say Sephiroth. But even after Cloud defeated him five years after his death, his... legacy still persisted in the Lifestream. It crept out into the world. A type of miasma that, because the Lifestream surged through the land to help fight Meteor, crept into the populace.
There's a circuit in all of our bodies similar to the Lifestream. This 'pox' was seen as a foreign invader the body tried to fight off. That was, in effect, Geostigma. But its purpose wasn't to destroy humanity. It was to find a way to return. Perhaps because he could no longer remember, having lost too much of himself.
Eventually that miasma created three beings. And those were Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo. Their purpose was to find enough of Jenova that remained in the world and bring back Sephiroth's return. And they did terrible things to achieve that goal.
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I'm a simple man, so bear with me; one step at a time.
Sephiroth and Jenova may be the same person at this point? Any evidence either way?
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You could ask him.
[ Absolutely would be the most driest of tone if it had been spoken. ]
It's more of a theory than evidence. We know now that one of the early theories about Jenova- that it was a Cetra were false. What we don't know is how much sentience it had. Only that the organism that was found in the strata had still living cells. And even a small fraction could radically impact living organisms.
When we encountered Sephiroth on our journey, we did fight manifestations of Jenova. But in my personal opinion, those had no more intelligence than a cunning beast. Sephiroth was the only personality we ever seemed to face.
If there is any evidence that Sephiroth and 'Jenova' were one and the same, it would be that he needed a large enough piece of it to return to the world as a whole being. But it's also reasonable to suggest that may be related to the circumstances of his conception.
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I'll put a pin in it.
"his...legacy" is a strange and vague way of describing this 'miasma'. Do you not know what it is or are you trying to make it easy on me?
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And no one in their right minds were going to hand over what few samples of Jenova still existed.
[ Certainly not even to the most trusted and sincere of those scientists. ]
Understand that there were few people who actually knew Sephiroth was behind anything. Shinra covered it up well. For two years, the world was dealing with the fallout of losing mako reactors, of Meteor and rebuilding after the Lifestream manifested. Geostigma was just another trial, thought to originate from Midgar and Shinra.
Truly knowing what it was came in those few weeks leading up to Sephiroth's return. For me, another year has passed. Though I don't know if anyone is directly looking further into what it truly was. Wouldn't be surprised though.
imagine each of these responses takes a bit.
So if you take this bullshit sounding cloud and stuff in enough bits of Jenova, you get ... another Sephiroth? Seems kind of odd that he can make three entire people but couldn't make something for himself.
As they should. Vincent probably takes a bit to respond. Work, but also getting details right.
There were reports that those who were feeling their mortality, the fear of death at the time were the ones who developed geostigma. The physical breakdown of the patient's body as it fought against the invasion was painful. But the 'disease' itself, if you could call it that, seemed to feed on despair and suffering. The more you thought of giving up, well. The faster it progressed until the victim's body gave out.
Hm. I'm not sure exactly how the first came into existence.
[ He has bits of the story thanks to Tseng and Elena but... ]
But a catalyst somehow brought Kadaj into existence. The other two may have came because of this limited 'success'. But that's just a theory. As you say, it took more to bring Sephiroth himself back. He doesn't see them as real people. To him, that may be because they never were meant to be more than a stepping stone. And Jenova may not have been enough.
Maybe Cloud was the final piece. Maybe not.
[ There is a pause. ]
I don't say this because I believe there is no hope. But from a purely practical standpoint, the only reason Kadaj and Yazoo have physical forms... that need to eat and breathe and sleep and can get hurt. That is because of the Admiral. If their limiters were removed, they would be just as they were on our world, I think. Well, physically at least.
That is something you shouldn't tell anyone without their permission. It can lead to a lot of problems if it was spread around.
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Well it sounds to me like I had it a bit backwards earlier when I suggested Sephiroth was their dad. He's their mother. Ok. That's weird but it's not like we're natural anyway so why the heck not.
No reason to discuss any of this with anyone, frankly. I just wanted to be certain where they come from, and that it wasn't Shinra.
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[ Then, Sephiroth is... .... snrt .... good thing this is text. ]
I suppose that's not wrong. Either way, I appreciate the discretion.
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On a related subject, do you talk to Shaw warden to warden much?
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Really hung up on the idea that Shinra must have created the boys as tools for war.
Turns out they're still tools for war, just a different battlefield.
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I was focused on giving her context about the world you grew up in.
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Another factor may be Shaw's condition that makes it hard for her to process or express certain social cues.
[ There's no reason not to mention this; she's spoken of it herself publicly. ]
It's hard to say. She's worked for an agency with tasks that could parallel some of what the Turks do for Shinra. Shaw might be using those similarities for her impression.
Want me to have a talk with her?
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But I don't think she needs to know details about the boys' origins. She doesn't understand, willfully I suspect, that our planet's different when it comes to monsters.
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Not saying they can't learn. But without the mindset coming from being part of that world...
Well. I'll speak up if she brings it up. Good luck with everything else.
And if you have other questions, I'll try to answer them if I can.
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