[ Vincent waits. ]
You could ask him.
[ Absolutely would be the most driest of tone if it had been spoken. ]
It's more of a theory than evidence. We know now that one of the early theories about Jenova- that it was a Cetra were false. What we don't know is how much sentience it had. Only that the organism that was found in the strata had still living cells. And even a small fraction could radically impact living organisms.
When we encountered Sephiroth on our journey, we did fight manifestations of Jenova. But in my personal opinion, those had no more intelligence than a cunning beast. Sephiroth was the only personality we ever seemed to face.
If there is any evidence that Sephiroth and 'Jenova' were one and the same, it would be that he needed a large enough piece of it to return to the world as a whole being. But it's also reasonable to suggest that may be related to the circumstances of his conception.
You could ask him.
[ Absolutely would be the most driest of tone if it had been spoken. ]
It's more of a theory than evidence. We know now that one of the early theories about Jenova- that it was a Cetra were false. What we don't know is how much sentience it had. Only that the organism that was found in the strata had still living cells. And even a small fraction could radically impact living organisms.
When we encountered Sephiroth on our journey, we did fight manifestations of Jenova. But in my personal opinion, those had no more intelligence than a cunning beast. Sephiroth was the only personality we ever seemed to face.
If there is any evidence that Sephiroth and 'Jenova' were one and the same, it would be that he needed a large enough piece of it to return to the world as a whole being. But it's also reasonable to suggest that may be related to the circumstances of his conception.
Thanks to amnesia, Sephiroth is an unreliable narrator. Even if he knew the truth once, knowing now is another matter.
I'll put a pin in it.
"his...legacy" is a strange and vague way of describing this 'miasma'. Do you not know what it is or are you trying to make it easy on me?
I'll put a pin in it.
"his...legacy" is a strange and vague way of describing this 'miasma'. Do you not know what it is or are you trying to make it easy on me?
A little bit of both. There's theories, scientific research connected to studying geostigma. But ultimately even best of Shinra's remaining scientists were only able to develop a drug that managed the pain of the disease it caused.
And no one in their right minds were going to hand over what few samples of Jenova still existed.
[ Certainly not even to the most trusted and sincere of those scientists. ]
Understand that there were few people who actually knew Sephiroth was behind anything. Shinra covered it up well. For two years, the world was dealing with the fallout of losing mako reactors, of Meteor and rebuilding after the Lifestream manifested. Geostigma was just another trial, thought to originate from Midgar and Shinra.
Truly knowing what it was came in those few weeks leading up to Sephiroth's return. For me, another year has passed. Though I don't know if anyone is directly looking further into what it truly was. Wouldn't be surprised though.
And no one in their right minds were going to hand over what few samples of Jenova still existed.
[ Certainly not even to the most trusted and sincere of those scientists. ]
Understand that there were few people who actually knew Sephiroth was behind anything. Shinra covered it up well. For two years, the world was dealing with the fallout of losing mako reactors, of Meteor and rebuilding after the Lifestream manifested. Geostigma was just another trial, thought to originate from Midgar and Shinra.
Truly knowing what it was came in those few weeks leading up to Sephiroth's return. For me, another year has passed. Though I don't know if anyone is directly looking further into what it truly was. Wouldn't be surprised though.
Probably a failing on my part that I can't connect toxic clouds to creating new people whole cloth or diseases. It sounds like made-up nonsense.
So if you take this bullshit sounding cloud and stuff in enough bits of Jenova, you get ... another Sephiroth? Seems kind of odd that he can make three entire people but couldn't make something for himself.
So if you take this bullshit sounding cloud and stuff in enough bits of Jenova, you get ... another Sephiroth? Seems kind of odd that he can make three entire people but couldn't make something for himself.
As they should. Vincent probably takes a bit to respond. Work, but also getting details right.
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coffinturk
2025-04-27 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah. Maybe 'miasma' is the wrong word. It was an essence mixed in the Lifestream. And as it tore across the land, those touched by it had a chance to become infected. After, it appeared often in water.
There were reports that those who were feeling their mortality, the fear of death at the time were the ones who developed geostigma. The physical breakdown of the patient's body as it fought against the invasion was painful. But the 'disease' itself, if you could call it that, seemed to feed on despair and suffering. The more you thought of giving up, well. The faster it progressed until the victim's body gave out.
Hm. I'm not sure exactly how the first came into existence.
[ He has bits of the story thanks to Tseng and Elena but... ]
But a catalyst somehow brought Kadaj into existence. The other two may have came because of this limited 'success'. But that's just a theory. As you say, it took more to bring Sephiroth himself back. He doesn't see them as real people. To him, that may be because they never were meant to be more than a stepping stone. And Jenova may not have been enough.
Maybe Cloud was the final piece. Maybe not.
[ There is a pause. ]
I don't say this because I believe there is no hope. But from a purely practical standpoint, the only reason Kadaj and Yazoo have physical forms... that need to eat and breathe and sleep and can get hurt. That is because of the Admiral. If their limiters were removed, they would be just as they were on our world, I think. Well, physically at least.
That is something you shouldn't tell anyone without their permission. It can lead to a lot of problems if it was spread around.
There were reports that those who were feeling their mortality, the fear of death at the time were the ones who developed geostigma. The physical breakdown of the patient's body as it fought against the invasion was painful. But the 'disease' itself, if you could call it that, seemed to feed on despair and suffering. The more you thought of giving up, well. The faster it progressed until the victim's body gave out.
Hm. I'm not sure exactly how the first came into existence.
[ He has bits of the story thanks to Tseng and Elena but... ]
But a catalyst somehow brought Kadaj into existence. The other two may have came because of this limited 'success'. But that's just a theory. As you say, it took more to bring Sephiroth himself back. He doesn't see them as real people. To him, that may be because they never were meant to be more than a stepping stone. And Jenova may not have been enough.
Maybe Cloud was the final piece. Maybe not.
[ There is a pause. ]
I don't say this because I believe there is no hope. But from a purely practical standpoint, the only reason Kadaj and Yazoo have physical forms... that need to eat and breathe and sleep and can get hurt. That is because of the Admiral. If their limiters were removed, they would be just as they were on our world, I think. Well, physically at least.
That is something you shouldn't tell anyone without their permission. It can lead to a lot of problems if it was spread around.
I don't see why anyone would think it's hopeless. The Admiral doesn't bring people here just to send them back to die. Either they're sturdier than you give them credit for or there's an alternative to be found.
Well it sounds to me like I had it a bit backwards earlier when I suggested Sephiroth was their dad. He's their mother. Ok. That's weird but it's not like we're natural anyway so why the heck not.
No reason to discuss any of this with anyone, frankly. I just wanted to be certain where they come from, and that it wasn't Shinra.
Well it sounds to me like I had it a bit backwards earlier when I suggested Sephiroth was their dad. He's their mother. Ok. That's weird but it's not like we're natural anyway so why the heck not.
No reason to discuss any of this with anyone, frankly. I just wanted to be certain where they come from, and that it wasn't Shinra.
They can become human if they desire. But the panic could come from what they currently are. I agree though. The Admiral saw something in who they are. I agreed to work with him. I don't see a reason yet to refute it.
[ Then, Sephiroth is... .... snrt .... good thing this is text. ]
I suppose that's not wrong. Either way, I appreciate the discretion.
[ Then, Sephiroth is... .... snrt .... good thing this is text. ]
I suppose that's not wrong. Either way, I appreciate the discretion.
I don't think anything on our planet can just will themselves to change species, Vincent. They're impressionable, I wouldn't tell them such a thing and then have them face its impossibility.
On a related subject, do you talk to Shaw warden to warden much?
On a related subject, do you talk to Shaw warden to warden much?
When I heard she became your warden, I spoke with her. Took her to the Enclosure to show her some things. Started with Midgar, before Meteor. Though after your time.
I wonder if she got it from you then. She seems hellbent on blaming everything that happens on Gaia on Shinra. Thinks she's seen it all before, won't consider anything that isn't what she's already decided on.
Really hung up on the idea that Shinra must have created the boys as tools for war.
Turns out they're still tools for war, just a different battlefield.
Really hung up on the idea that Shinra must have created the boys as tools for war.
Turns out they're still tools for war, just a different battlefield.
I never explicitly told her anything about Kadaj and Yazoo. Might be my fault she made that connection since I didn't confirm or deny it.
I was focused on giving her context about the world you grew up in.
I was focused on giving her context about the world you grew up in.
Don't take it as me blaming you. I get the impression she's projecting her own world's issues onto ours, just trying to figure out where this laser focus came from.
No, though I acknowledge it might be part of the cause.
Another factor may be Shaw's condition that makes it hard for her to process or express certain social cues.
[ There's no reason not to mention this; she's spoken of it herself publicly. ]
It's hard to say. She's worked for an agency with tasks that could parallel some of what the Turks do for Shinra. Shaw might be using those similarities for her impression.
Want me to have a talk with her?
Another factor may be Shaw's condition that makes it hard for her to process or express certain social cues.
[ There's no reason not to mention this; she's spoken of it herself publicly. ]
It's hard to say. She's worked for an agency with tasks that could parallel some of what the Turks do for Shinra. Shaw might be using those similarities for her impression.
Want me to have a talk with her?
Nope. She's my warden to deal with. But if she harps on Shinra being the source of all mortal ills in your presence, feel free to curb it. I got confirmation this one she's wrong on, it's enough.
But I don't think she needs to know details about the boys' origins. She doesn't understand, willfully I suspect, that our planet's different when it comes to monsters.
But I don't think she needs to know details about the boys' origins. She doesn't understand, willfully I suspect, that our planet's different when it comes to monsters.
Edited 2025-04-28 00:22 (UTC)
Mm. Few of those from the 'Earth' worlds have the context about monsters as they exist on our world.
Not saying they can't learn. But without the mindset coming from being part of that world...
Well. I'll speak up if she brings it up. Good luck with everything else.
And if you have other questions, I'll try to answer them if I can.
Not saying they can't learn. But without the mindset coming from being part of that world...
Well. I'll speak up if she brings it up. Good luck with everything else.
And if you have other questions, I'll try to answer them if I can.
That should do it for now. It's left a lot of other questions, I'm not going to lie. A lot of them. But those can wait for later. Thanks.
{It's human, isn't it. Yazoo and Kadaj are adapting, relaxing into their role as young men. Maybe Jenova made them too connected to the planet?}
I wouldn't call you an enemy back then. I didn't hate you; I actually thought you were fun, but annoying since you kept big brother from us.
{...yeah, he knows that outcome.}
We were all we had. {That was why they had only cared for each other.}
I wouldn't call you an enemy back then. I didn't hate you; I actually thought you were fun, but annoying since you kept big brother from us.
{...yeah, he knows that outcome.}
We were all we had. {That was why they had only cared for each other.}
Hm. I took Tseng and Elena too. I didn't think of it as fun. Different perspectives.
[ Well, Vincent won't lie to Yazoo. He won't claim there was enjoyment in their clashes. ]
I wonder. Was that bond part of what the Admiral saw in you? I suppose it doesn't matter.
[ Well, Vincent won't lie to Yazoo. He won't claim there was enjoyment in their clashes. ]
I wonder. Was that bond part of what the Admiral saw in you? I suppose it doesn't matter.
And? We just wanted to kill them. It wasn't as annoying. {They just hate Turks, okay. For reasons.}
Is the bond the best part?
Is the bond the best part?
It's a good part. What's best is entirely up for you to decide.
[ That's not one hundred percent true. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on it. But still, self-worth is an important skill to develop. ]
Just don't make it a contest over your positive traits.
[ That's not one hundred percent true. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on it. But still, self-worth is an important skill to develop. ]
Just don't make it a contest over your positive traits.
Though most of his expression is now hidden, Vincent's eyes are not. Ruby, lightly glowing in the shadows cast by his hair and clothes and perhaps the environment they're in. They focus on Cloud in a long moment of silence. A sigh follows; it is resigned in a way that suggests he feels the blond won't like what he hears. But Vincent will be honest.
"...I'm worried about you. I won't deny Sephiroth has changed since coming to the Barge. In some ways, it seems more that he's learned the limits of his confinement. Remains to be seen what would happen if he was truly released."
And that doesn't include the Narrenschiff incident. That was just another type of prison.
"I was just blind to Lucrecia's pain. Sephiroth... call it humanity. Or just empathy. I'm not convinced he comprehends it. At least, beyond his own desires. Time will tell if he ever is."
That's what the Barge is for, isn't it? Change.
"...I'm worried about you. I won't deny Sephiroth has changed since coming to the Barge. In some ways, it seems more that he's learned the limits of his confinement. Remains to be seen what would happen if he was truly released."
And that doesn't include the Narrenschiff incident. That was just another type of prison.
"I was just blind to Lucrecia's pain. Sephiroth... call it humanity. Or just empathy. I'm not convinced he comprehends it. At least, beyond his own desires. Time will tell if he ever is."
That's what the Barge is for, isn't it? Change.
Cloud knows what that sigh means, but he's ready to hear it, whatever it is. He feels more sure of himself right now than he has in a long time.
I'm worried about you. Well, what else is new? But this time, at least, Cloud doesn't feel like he's done anything to warrant it. He listens to what Vincent has to say. His head tilts.
"But isn't that true of all inmates? We can't know how things will go when we leave. All anybody here can do is trust the Admiral's judgment. I know Sephiroth will graduate - I'm not going anywhere until he does. So when that happens, you gotta decide whether you trust the Barge to work like it's supposed to, or not." An unconscious echo of what Vincent himself is thinking, in a way.
Then, thoughtfully, Cloud says, "You should talk to him. I've seen empathy in him. Humanity. And...he's far from blind to my pain. But you don't have to just take my word for it. Maybe your opinion'll change and maybe it won't, but either way, go talk to him and gauge for yourself."
I'm worried about you. Well, what else is new? But this time, at least, Cloud doesn't feel like he's done anything to warrant it. He listens to what Vincent has to say. His head tilts.
"But isn't that true of all inmates? We can't know how things will go when we leave. All anybody here can do is trust the Admiral's judgment. I know Sephiroth will graduate - I'm not going anywhere until he does. So when that happens, you gotta decide whether you trust the Barge to work like it's supposed to, or not." An unconscious echo of what Vincent himself is thinking, in a way.
Then, thoughtfully, Cloud says, "You should talk to him. I've seen empathy in him. Humanity. And...he's far from blind to my pain. But you don't have to just take my word for it. Maybe your opinion'll change and maybe it won't, but either way, go talk to him and gauge for yourself."
"Yes." It's true of all inmates. Whatever warrants the change that causes graduation will one day free them to be returned and to life on top of that.
To face everything in the place they return to, unfettered. Vincent doesn't look guilty or apologetic; he hadn't forgotten that in his earlier statement.
"Change is not always about becoming a good person."
If it were, Cloud would have graduated the moment he stepped foot on the Barge. There is... another sigh. But it's not as heavy as the first.
"That's why I said it wasn't the same as being blind like I was. I'll talk to him again."
Though it's brusque it's not dismissive, nor walled off; at least to people that understand Vincent as well as Cloud does. If he says he'll do it, he will do so properly.
To face everything in the place they return to, unfettered. Vincent doesn't look guilty or apologetic; he hadn't forgotten that in his earlier statement.
"Change is not always about becoming a good person."
If it were, Cloud would have graduated the moment he stepped foot on the Barge. There is... another sigh. But it's not as heavy as the first.
"That's why I said it wasn't the same as being blind like I was. I'll talk to him again."
Though it's brusque it's not dismissive, nor walled off; at least to people that understand Vincent as well as Cloud does. If he says he'll do it, he will do so properly.
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